“We are spending more time than ever in virtual environments. That will only increase, as well the amount of noise we encounter there…”
“As individuals and businesses, we not only spend time and energy managing this digital pollution, we often create it. At-risk are relationships and revenue…”
“The only viable way forward is to be more thoughtful, intentional, and personal.”
Join me today as I interview Bombomb’s Chief Evangelist and two-time author Ethan Beute as we discuss how his book, Human-Centered Communication, and mine, The Upstream Model, go hand in hand.
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FULL AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION:
Justin Stoddart 0:01
So the big question is this. How do we those of us in the real estate industry with crazy amounts of ambition? How do we think bigger than the building of our own empires? How do we simultaneously see success and significance, income and impact? My name is Justin Stoddard. And this is the Think Bigger Real Estate Show. Have you ever thought how to bring humanity back into your business, how to really connect with people on a much deeper level? Today’s topic, we’re going to go in depth on that with a very special guest. excited to have you here to learn again, how you can bring humanity and connecting with people at a much deeper, deeper level back into your business.
Welcome back to the Think Bigger Real Estate Show. I’m your host, Justin Stoddart thrilled today to have Ethan Bute Chief, Chief Evangelist, and multiple-time best-selling author. With us today. Again, Ethan is the chief evangelist for Bomb Bomb, Ethan, it’s such a pleasure to have you here today. Thanks for spending some time with us.
Ethan Beute 1:14
Yeah, thank you very much for the opportunity. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks for diving into human-centered communication. I’m excited to talk about it.
Justin Stoddart 1:23
Yeah, it’s gonna be great. So for those that don’t know, Ethan authored this book, not only is he the chief evangelist for Bom, bom, but he also authored this book. It’s not his first book, but it’s in my opinion, it’s his best. It’s absolutely a fabulous read. For anybody that has interest in building a relationship based business, a business that compounds on itself, because you’re not just looking for numbers. But because you’re looking to connect with and that deep value to people.
This is an absolute must read. So before I forget, I want everybody that’s listening to this when you get to the end of this episode, or not go to Bom bom.com, forward slash book to get your copy. And we’re going to dive in and have a deep conversation about Ethan’s book, and how it really even interfaces with a lot of the thinking that I shared in my book, The upstream model, which you can see right over my shoulder there. There we go. So, Ethan, let’s just begin with this. How was your experience writing? Now multiple books?
Ethan Beute 2:24
Yeah, the two books are dramatically different. The first one rehumanize your business is the what, why, who, when and how of using video messages and video email. And it was something that I started writing for fun. And because I was just really passionate about how far we had come I joined Bomb-Bomb when we were six employees and maybe one or 200 customers and then my first six years full time, which is a long time, it’s 10 years now. We maybe had 30 or 35,000 customers and we had attracted some, you know, competitors that were sitting on, you know, 10s, or even hundreds of millions of dollars of venture capital. And really, together with our customers in our community pioneered this movement of replacing some of our faces typed out text with simple personal video messages because more personal, it’s more human, it saves time, it’s better for you, and or it’s better for the other person, all these various reasons.
And so I just started writing that one and then ended up roping in my longtime friend and team member and our chief marketing officer Steve personality into co-authoring it with me. Human-Centered communication, on the other hand, was a much different style in that Steve generated the idea pitched me on it. It involved roping turns out to be 11 of our expert friends into the process. So we did deep research and then in depth interviews with 11 different people, ranging from a marketing futurist at Salesforce to the first salesperson ever hired at HubSpot to the CEO of REMAX to an emotional intelligence expert with seven US patents in the analysis of facial coding data.
So we handpick these people, we did deep dives in them, and I’d be curious to know what your writing processes but in this case, unlike rehumanize, this one, when I started writing the chapters, at least chapters three through 13, I was starting with outlines that were already like 4500 words. So it’s really a matter of cutting it down and shaping it up. And it was about finding the other person’s voice and finding the other person’s philosophies and strategies and tactics. And in each of those chapters making that person and their expertise in their recommendations and their experiences really shine on an individual basis. So it was a it was a much different process the second time than the first and I had a lot more to work with because I didn’t have to create it all from scratch.
Justin Stoddart 4:45
I love it. I love it such a great experience of what a wise way to go about it right as crowdsource from the top experts in the world who all believe ultimately what you believe. And in fact, let’s get into that if somebody could read your book and walk away with a different way of thinking and even acting, what would be your ultimate ambition for people that that that again, pick up the book and
Ethan Beute 5:05
read it? That I mean, I feel like it’s loaded. And it’ll serve you in three different ways. I mean, we definitely have this. At this point, I would say, you know, it’s grounded in reality and grounded in our experience and expertise, I think you would recognize that yeah, this all makes sense. But I’ll still say it this way, even though I think it might be a little bit too, it might not be fair to the nature of it. There’s definitely a theoretical framework, especially in chapters, one, two, and 16. And then we have all the experts in the middle. And those are loaded with strategic and tactical insights. So if you’re looking for something to do today, you’re going to find five to 10 of them in each chapter, if you’re looking for a different mindset or approach, as you head into 2022, you’re going to find four or five of those relative to your daily digital communication in any given chapter.
And because they each are based on different men and women in different roles, definitely a bias towards sales and marketing, but customer service, leadership, management, etc, is all kind of represented in there. You can serve yourself in any of those ways, if you want a theoretical framework to think about the world and where we are now, relative to what are humans best at? What role should technology play? What are some of the negative consequences of taking this, you know, 200 year old industrial mindset and applying them as we are all are doing in our in our sales processes in our marketing communication? What are the negative consequences that at a theoretical level, like where are we in?
Where are we going, or if you want to get very strategic and think about different ways to organize your thoughts and your behaviors and your people, you’ll get that or if you want really tactical stuff of, you know what I’m tired of being on another zoom call where people feel seem to me very disengaged, or they don’t have their cameras on or whatever. And one of the chapters, you’ll get eight different ways to tell someone on the on the other side of the screen that you want them to turn their camera on. Right. So you’ll you’ll get served at those various levels. And you can take out of it, whatever you would like.
Justin Stoddart 7:14
I love it. Yeah, definitely lots of theory, and also lots of very tactical takeaways. And I love that you’re again, I think, again, at the time of us recording this, right, the US is, is kind of questioning whether or not to like what to do with new COVID variants, right, and the world is, I think we’re all realizing the fact that this virtual world is not going away anytime soon, not just because of that, but because there are a number of conveniences and improvements upon quality of life that have happened as a result of this take COVID away entirely. I know that we would not go back to the world that we were living prior, right, we’ve all really massive benefit from that. Yeah, it
Ethan Beute 7:54
was such an important observation, I think, you know, for a while there, we were like, Okay, well, as soon as this thing fades, we’ll kind of go back, we’ll go back, we’ll go back to how it was how it was how it was. And that’s just over into your point. Regardless of what happens with any of the variants. The fact of the matter is, in this experience over the past 18 to 24 months, I’ll just use the language of buyers and sellers, of different products and services, buyers have realized it’s easier, better, faster to buy things, leveraging some of these digital virtual and online opportunities, sellers have also realized, hey, I can get in front of more people or I have a broader reach or whatever the case may be. And certainly anywhere where buyers and sellers are both experiencing benefits by operating in digital virtual and online space, that’s never going back.
Because it’s better for both people, right. And then next layer is what’s good for buyers. That’s probably not going back. And if you let it go back in your business competitors who continue to meet buyers, where they want to be met, will win out. And anything that’s really good for you say as a representative or seller, I don’t mean to confuse home buyers and home sellers. I mean, a buyer in this case is someone who would be buying or selling a home perhaps speaking specifically to real estate. If you the seller, you the agent, you the broker owner, are trying to force something that is more convenient for you but doesn’t serve your customers better, then you will also lose out on that opportunity to your customer. So we need to look at those things that are serving buyers and sellers, better customers and businesses better and that is never going away. And so just on that fact alone, we’re going to be doing more selling and serving in digital virtual and online channels in the future not less. And at the same time. These channels are noisier and more polluted than ever so it becomes harder and more expensive to get attention.
It becomes harder and more time consuming to build trust, trust becomes more fragile and therefore it’s quicker to lose. And so we need to acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of these channels. We need to acknowledge the strengths weaknesses of our own behavior in these channels, we were forced into them so quickly at the onset of the pandemic, a lot of this stuff became normalized, very, very quickly, that we never gave conscious thought to how to use these tools best. And we all know that a tool is only as good as its application, the tool itself has no inherent magic, or benefit, or when in it, it’s it’s in when and how we apply that tool. And so that that becomes a very important theme throughout the book as well.
Justin Stoddart 10:30
You know, I want to take a couple notes here, just because you’ve said so many good points in here that I want to highlight, again, that many of which you’ll find in the book, but for those here that are really looking for kind of the Cliff’s Notes to begin applying this today, right, before you get into the book. One thing that I want to point out is that again, this virtual world is not going away, therefore you should get better at it. And getting better at it does not mean just plugging along and doing what everybody does. But this is really kind of the cheat code for you to be able to really step up and be very human and very powerful in the digital space without having to either learn by default, because your conversions have dropped because your customers are going elsewhere. Or because you’re learning simply by by seeing bits and pieces from other people, this is really a manual for you to master being not just good in the digital space, but a great connector, a great human, right, which has caused you to excel and come into a sales facing kind of front facing role. Now you’re able to take those same attributes and really excel in the digital world without missing a beat. So I want to point that out to everybody here that this, this is very much a manual on how to be great in the digital world.
But it’s it’s more than that. You know, oftentimes we hear in this world, like, like, more is better, right? If if our conversions are, let’s say, 20%, then if we want to double our numbers, then we just need to do you know, X number more. And I think what this book points out that read is that resonated very much with me. And part of the reason why I wrote the upstream model, is because I saw that, like traditional models tell you to just build a bigger and bigger and bigger database. And it’s all about the numbers. And I don’t believe that I don’t believe that’s the best way to do business. It’s a way to do business. And many have succeeded in that method. But it discounts what’s highlighted in this book and Ethan’s book, which is there’s an opportunity cost every time you have, let’s say 80% of the people say no to you. Just because 20% said yes doesn’t mean that there isn’t some sort of opportunity cost that needs to be weighed out by by eight out of 10 people saying no, there’s something off there that potentially could be improved. So more is not better, better is better. And there is a way for us using the digital tools that are out there, one of which is a very powerful one being bom, bom to really connect with people and actually improve and become better, rather than just trying to do more. Right?
Ethan Beute 12:51
Yeah, I mean, when we focus on more, and we focus on efficiency, we can definitely realize gains. But there are two big factors that we need to consider. And you’ve already highlighted one, which is that, you know, even when we’re super good at our conversion rate on this particular thing, you know, we focus on the positive metric, which is the 3% conversion, or the 20%, conversion or whatever. And we ignore the 80% failure rate or the 97% fail rate failure rate to stick with three and 20. And some of the negative consequences there. And so we need to think about as we create these digital messages and experiences, not just Can I double my top of funnel and have all the rest of the metrics holds that if I put x in the top, I get Y out the bottom, and my model holds. And, and I can continue to play the numbers game and I you know, for every dollar I put in the top, I get $1.30 out the bottom.
And so I’m just going to keep pouring dollars in the top one, the numbers are not going to hold. And that’s because again, the noisier and more polluted these environments get, the more precious and valuable people’s time and attention become, which means that they’re going to be more protective of their time and attention in it is easier than ever, not just to swipe and delete. But to unsubscribe or mark for spam or block. I can block ads based on source. I can block emails, and I can block an entire email domain. So if you have, you know, one bad actor on a domain, let’s just say it’s a you know, I don’t mean to ensure someone owns this domain. It’s a bad example, but I seem to walk it out. Colorado Springs where I am Colorado Springs real estate.com. If you have one bad actor who’s overly aggressive not serving people, well they’re sending out lazy selfish messaging. They’re sending too much of it in an undisciplined untargeted way. So that the vast majority let’s say the 97% are receiving it and X percent are blocking or unsubscribing or similar. You can block an entire domain now. So it’s Not just Jeff at this real estate company that that I’m now frustrated by, I can block every I can block that entire domain. So none of their agents can ever reach me again. And so we need to acknowledge that a humans are pattern making machines and they learn very quickly whether or not you are worth their time and attention. And so as you play the numbers game and treat people like numbers and make people to feel like numbers, unseen, unheard, undervalued and like a part of your revenue generation process, as opposed to providing a service to that person. You’re diminishing your ability to reach them in the future.
Likewise, machines are observing everything that we do. So it’s not just I’m recognizing that this person or this brand, or this company, is putting stuff in front of me and taking my time and attention in a way that doesn’t reward me for that time and attention. But the machines are observing that I’m not replying that I’m no longer opening that I’m swiping and deleting, that I’m scrolling right past you in my feed, and the machines will increasingly as noise and pollution grows, the machines will increasingly curate my experience, and you’ll disappear even further. And we all know that this is intuitively true, because we make that new follow on Instagram, or we make that new friend on Facebook, or we make that new connection on LinkedIn. And if we don’t consistently like or comment on their stuff in the first, you know, two weeks, they’re basically going to disappear. And it’s like we never connected at all, because they’re not my feed anymore. Because my behavior is teaching the machine that I’m not really into what they’re doing. Whereas if I dwell on their posts, if I like their posts, if I comment, they’re going to show up more and more and more. And so that simple experience that we can all relate to is going to be coming to more and more digital channels. And so this idea that we can treat people like numbers, and still when in the end, you could undertake this approach on moral grounds alone.
And I feel the same way about the upstream model. You could undertake it because it’s the best thing to do. It respects people the most, you’re more satisfied in your work just undertaken on moral grounds alone. And you could should would, but you should also do it because it’s if you want to be successful in the medium and long terms, and not just play the short term myopic game, where it’s like, where’s my next transaction? Where’s my next transaction? This is healthiest thing to do for your business, too. It’s so I don’t want to call it the silly kind of win win win, win, win, but it is it’s not like it’s just the way it’s just the way
Justin Stoddart 17:29
period. So I want to take it even another step is that let’s play the 97% not converted, right, right, like 3% of the people that you talk to, or that you email are responding, you have to put as we described, more leads in the top of the funnel, that takes time, right, not only are you disappearing from the people who are accessing you, right, they’re either scrolling past you or they’re, they’re marking your emails and unsubscribing. But you’re also taking more time away from people in your life that matter even more than those potential customers. Right? That’s, that’s the message, right is that it’s, it’s hustle and grind. It’s it’s do more like more numbers. But if the conversion rate is still 3%, you’ve now doubled down on doing an activity that is not only potentially frustrating, or at least not not adding value to 97% of the people. But it’s also taken you away from things in life that may be even more meaningful, then then the growth of your business, right, and you start to disappear from the lives of those people because you’re out using methods and tactics that require more time, more time, more time or resources. Whereas if you just focus on getting better, right, developing more trust, one thing I loved about, you know, that I highlighted in your book was it’s it’s been said by even some of the biggest names and you know, in the digital space that this is the attention economy. And you you know, you refute that you say no, this is the trust economy is that there are so many sources to listen to right now people go to where they trust, and yes, you need their attention. But can you get both? Can you have attention and trust? And I believe your work is really leading people to be able to say yeah, you can you can have both you can be a better experience and still reach your biggest goals.
Ethan Beute 19:28
Yeah, I mean it What good is attention if it doesn’t lead to trust, which then leads to engagement, which then leads to a positive reputation, positive word of mouth, even if they’re not in the market for whatever your product or services immediately they still have this positive emotional resonance from their interaction with you that provokes like, gosh, you know, I I’ve, you know, my my family and I have changed our minds. We’re not actually ready to sell. But gotcha, you know, and not have the sense of obligation or reciprocity that I’m going to share, share your name with somebody else or make an introduction to your these types of things. And this goes back to, um, and you’re right, trust is the currency of the economy. Attention is exclusively one of its necessary precursors. That’s to say, of course, you cannot build trust unless you get someone’s attention. But if you’re playing the attention game, that becomes difficult to your point, I love what you offer, there is the opportunity cost of all this, why am I in business in the first place, it’s to put myself in a position where I can spend more time with the people and doing the things that I really prefer to do. And yet, I’m making a trade off, I love the human side that the opportunity costs that you introduced to going down the wrong road as well.
But if we’re exclusively playing this attention game, and not rewarding people’s time and attention, we are teaching them with every single message and experience that we put in front of them, that will not worth their time or attention. So attention alone isn’t enough. We need to reward that, through help through service through generosity through whatever, you know, value seems to be the word that is the catch all for all, any or all of those things. But if we don’t operate from a spirit of service, and we’ll warn people in each exchange of their time and attention, or at least try to do our best to do that, then we’re playing the short term attention game, and it’s expensive in more ways than one. Yeah.
Justin Stoddart 21:24
I think, you know, one of the tactical takeaways for everybody listening here today is that you probably, if you’re a real estate agent, or some other low pay professional, my guess is that you’re the company with whom you work is probably set up to where you can kind of tie into their, their big email cents, right? And it’s not you it’s not personal. It’s just stuff about your industry. Right. Now, I’m not here to say that that’s a terrible idea. Right? I am here to say that there might be a better idea, there might be a better way to do that same thing with your social media, people will pay people to send out kind of generic, helpful stuff. I’m not here to say that to you know, to say that that’s a terrible idea. I am here to say that that maybe there’s a better idea, maybe there’s a better way for you to get attention that is uniquely you.
And potentially even rather than spending an hour on sending out an email campaign, what if you were to spend, you know, that same hour, sending a very personal video message to call it 30 people? Would the impact actually be greater? Would you actually if your end goal were again, let’s say we’re totally selfish, your end goal were to be to convert more customers? Would you actually get more people who had a greater impact and would be more likely to do business with you? I believe the answer is yes. By being more personal. I really believe that that and again, back to the essence of why I wrote the upstream model is that everything that I was hearing in the marketplace was build a big database, whether it be warm market, or whether it be cold market, right, whether it be a geographic farm, a list of for sale by owners, or even a giant sphere, right, which again, I’m not downing any of those, those have made wonderful livelihoods for countless people.
But in addition to that, can you focus in on people who are upstream from you, to whom you can leverage the value that they have, and you give value to them to offer a better client experience to your clients. And in turn, get access to people who are raising their hand to another professional saying, I really need a great real estate agent right now. And that’s hand delivered without all the digital pollution, right? As you described in your book, without all of that it’s, it’s a highly trusted professional passing an introduction to you, to to you another highly trusted professional, it just eliminates so much noise and eliminate so much, I believe unnecessary striking out to get to what you ultimately want is a homerun right is is kind of runs, you know, baseball runs, right? If that’s the metaphor we’re using, then you don’t need to strike out as much and have as much of that of that kind of negative experience to get to what you ultimately want, which is a better client experience and more of them.
Ethan Beute 24:23
Yep. To practical things people can do with your two examples right there off the top in terms of mass emails written by someone that is not anywhere near you, and it’s general for the entire nation perhaps. And then also to you know, hiring out social stuff to things someone could do to put that a step in the right direction. First is if you are going to use that big pre written email, don’t just take every email address you ever collected and assume that they want that stuff. That’s the fastest way to shrink your list. Instead, start with an email that says hey, You know, one of the things I like to do is keep my clients updated with a really, whatever way you would sell the idea of this type of email content to people and let people opt in. And so let’s just say your database is 3700 people, let’s just say only 500 people opt in, you might go, Well, that sucks. I wanted to send it to 3700 people.
Well, the fact of the matter is 500 People who raised their hand and said, Yes, is infinitely better than 3700 people who have no idea it’s coming, including those 500 people who because you didn’t introduce the idea that it might be coming, aren’t expecting it, you’re not anticipated. And therefore, they’re much more likely not to engage in a way that they might if you had said, Hey, here’s some I want to provide you, but only if you want to receive it. So that’s one permission basis. Super old school. You know, this dates, Seth Godin wrote permission marketing before the year 2000. I’m pretty sure that was published in 1999. But still a simple principle that makes things a lot better today. And as to social stuff. If you are putting stuff up, and it’s you know, moderate engagement, don’t just let it be about social take note of who’s commenting take note of who’s liking and do things like send personal video message, hey, saw you comment on the thing is really cool, what you said about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, want to follow up. And you know, when I turn these hand raises, the small hand raises likes and comments into something more, the whole goal is to be in conversation with people.
And so those are two things you can do practically, with what are approximately mass not really well segmented or directed marketing activities and make them a little bit better. And to Fun fact, to your point about sending personal video messages, you know, sending 30 of them in an hour. That is a highly productive activity. And the fun fact is this, Steve and I co authored this book rehumanize, your business I released in April 2019. And and this one came out in October of this year, so two and a half years difference between them. And the way that mass email per focus, we have a very large database at bom, bom. And we really struggled with the best way to mass market a book that says, you know, we should be more personal and human. So we had a lot of internal struggles around it. But I’ll tell you what I guarantee, we sold more books, through my personal effort of one to one videos over a three month span leading up to the release of the book, then we sold by mass email sending and they were not all sold directly.
Yes, some people when I sent a personal video message replied and said, Oh, this is amazing. I want 10 Or I want 100. But other people said, oh, man, you need to meet my friend, so and so host this podcast, she would love this conversation. Or it’s time to get you back on the podcast, or I’ll do a social post about this. You know, all of this, like I you know, shared values, shared beliefs, people, we appreciate people we like I can’t do, I’m not going to buy 50 copies of this, but I’ll buy one and I’ll do a post about it like this are this reciprocity, this this generosity that exists within the human relationships that we’ve built, we give it we receive it, there are times to offer it, there are times to ask for favors in a reasonable, polite shared values kind of way. And I guarantee I sold more books directly and indirectly through personal video messages that I did through mass emails to 10s of 1000s of people guarantee it.
Justin Stoddart 28:32
Again, the takeaway I know we’re almost out of time your ether. But I think a key takeaway for every listener here today is stop marketing to the masses and start marketing to humans start actually building trust and relationships with humans. And watch what happens like that will be the most powerful form of marketing you ever do. And it won’t look like it up front, when we start to gain trust and build relationships with people. And I would argue with the right people, hence the need for the upstream model to really identify who are the right people, because we can’t just give away our time to anybody. But when you identify the right people, and you add value to the right people, amazing thing starts to happen starts to happen. Again, oh, I want to remind everybody if you don’t yet have a copy of this book, human centered communication, it’s a fantastic read. It will change the way you look at building a relationship based business. Go to Bom bom.com Ford slash book is a book or books ebook.
Ethan Beute 29:29
But even though there are two books there, it’s a comm slash book, or last question communication at Amazon.
Justin Stoddart 29:36
I love it. I love it. Even last question for you. You are a big thinker. What does Ethan do to continue to be a big thinker to continue to expand your possibilities?
Ethan Beute 29:45
Um, two things and they’re both directly related one I read a lot of books and listen to a lot of podcasts, and I don’t keep them all in the same zone. So I taste from a wide variety of disciplines and backgrounds and interest history’s so that’s one side of it, I’m, I’m constantly thinking about other people’s ideas and taking in raw material that may not have any immediate application. But someone recommended it, whatever. And so it all this is the source of all creativity is is, you know, they see nothing new under the sun, it’s just new ideas combined differently in an in a different way.
And so I think by giving yourself a lot of different, diverse raw material to work with, it’s fun and interesting. But then the other key thing that I do is I stop, and I don’t listen to anything while I’m running or walking or hiking. I don’t read a book at all for a weekend. And I spend time with my thoughts, sometimes intentionally trying to organize and develop them, and sometimes just, you know, letting what happens happens. And so I think it’s just like with food, you can’t just eat all the time. But if you don’t eat, you’re missing the proper nutrition that you need. So you need time to ingest lots of healthy and interesting and valuable ideas.
But you also need to create some solitude and space and empty time to process that material and turn it into something useful for your mind and for your work and for conversation and for other people. And so it’s that balance of constantly sampling a wide variety of good, new, interesting and old, interesting stuff. And then also giving myself time and space to process the ideas and to turn them into something either concrete or or they just stay loose as abstract ideas that might be useful in the future.
Justin Stoddart 31:37
Amazing answer. I love it Ethan been such a pleasure for you to, for us to learn from you today. Thank you for all the work that you put into I know it is a Herculean effort to publish it, but you do so. So thank you for the sacrifice to do that. I’m looking forward to to getting this into more and more hands, because I know it’d be good for them. Even such a pleasure. Again, thank you so much for everybody listening here today. Thank you for tuning in, whether you’re listening live or after the fact, my final request of you is are these three simple words and they are go think bigger. Ethan, thanks for helping to do that today. My friend.
Ethan Beute 32:08
Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And
Justin Stoddart 32:12
I want to thank you for tuning in to this episode of The thick bigger real estate show. If you found value here, I asked three things. Number one, give us a review. Number two, go to Facebook groups search Think Bigger Real Estate and apply to join. Here you will find a community of big thinking professionals that will help you grow your income, your independence and your impact. And my third request is go Think Bigger.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai